#118. Five Habits of the Tech-Ready Family: Chris McKenna on Digital Safety & Protecting Kids Online + GIVEAWAY

Chris: 00:00:00

I do believe, using a quote that I heard from Pastor Jacob Aranza, that

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God can turn any of our miseries into

ministry, any of them into mission.

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That looks different for each of us,

but I do believe that He can do that.

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Speaker 4: This is the Again podcast

where we believe that what you do

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over and over really matters to God.

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I'm Stephanie Hickox, and this is

brought to you by Entrusted Ministries.

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And if you're able to listen to this

podcast, then one of your against

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is probably managing devices and

technology For you and for your family.

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You're gonna be so blessed by the wisdom

and leadership of Chris McKenna, creator

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and CEO of Protect Young Eyes, and author

of Five Habits of the Tech Ready Family:

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Raising Wise Kids in a Wild Digital World.

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It's set to release on June

16th, but I got a sneak peek

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and read it cover to cover.

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I've got most of it highlighted and

underlined, and I'm ready to take action.

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I feel equipped and inspired rather

than overwhelmed, and that's exactly

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what I want for you because this area of

digital safety is not one we can ignore.

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Chris and I talked about why

it's so important to protect our

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kids and a little bit of the how.

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And I really want you to get your hands

on this book, So we're having a giveaway.

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You can find all the

details in our show notes.

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And I'm also gonna throw in our Entrusted

book that comes with our entire video

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series for individuals or for couples

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Best of luck.

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Let's get to it

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Steph: I've read a lot on this topic,

but this book is an absolute must-read.

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Sometimes before I get on these

interviews, I feel a little

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bit of pressure, like, how am

I gonna summarize this well?

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And I was about a chapter in when

I decided I have no obligation

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to summarize this, because I want

every parent to buy this book.

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And I wanna get into more of

why I think it's so phenomenal.

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But first, Chris, could you tell us a

little bit about yourself, about what you

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do at Protect Young Eyes, and why God led

you to be the man leading this charge?

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Chris: Sure, because this is

not what I thought I'd be doing.

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So I like to tell the story because

it's kind of fun and unexpected, and

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that's kind of what God does sometimes.

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So, love the Lord, uh, husband to

Andrea, 26 years married now, four

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children in middle, high, and college.

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So my oldest is our only daughter.

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She's 21, and then we have three

boys who are ages 14, 16, and 16.

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Set of twins in there.

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really unique set of twins, one who has

Down syndrome, the other one doesn't,

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so fraternal in every sense of the word.

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They look different, they act different,

their chromosomes are different.

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I mean, everything is

different, so it's fabulous.

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And so like many of you listening to this

or watching this, like you, I'm stumbling

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and bumbling through the digital age

trying to figure this out the best I can.

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But professionally, there's a

journey that got me to where I am.

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Again, I never expected this.

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So I'm a CPA by profession.

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That was what I was trained for.

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That's my degree, double major in

Spanish, did international business.

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I worked at Ernst & Young for

12 years in risk consulting.

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I loved that job, and still to this

day, I was just trading a message

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with somebody that I worked with,

even though it's been almost 15 years.

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But the Lord called me into ministry,

so I left behind the business job

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and went into full-time student

ministry, which was quite the change.

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If you can imagine, you know, that

switch while Andrea's pregnant with

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twins nonetheless 16 years ago.

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But that timeframe is really

important because I made that

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change, Stephanie, in 2009.

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So from 2009 to 2016, in terms

of technology, I watched us put

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technology, portable technology,

into the pockets of kids.

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That's when that happened, right?

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Around 2011, 2012, parents are

now handing down their old iPhones

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to kids, starting to tote this

device around, downloading apps.

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And not that parents were bad, they

just didn't know what they didn't know.

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None of us really did.

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Now, I had also been exposed

to pornography as a child.

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I carried, uh, an addiction to pornography

then into adulthood and into marriage.

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I had come through that through Christ

and accountability, but then I watched us

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put that monster back in kids' pockets,

and that terrified me as a youth pastor

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because, Stephanie, the early days of

social media, I know that we know that

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there's horrible things about Snapchat

and TikTok and Instagram today, but the

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early days of social media when Snapchat

and Instagram are just out of the

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gate, it was truly the Wild Wild West.

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Zero moderation and controls.

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On Instagram in the early days, you

could find straight-up streaming clips

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of pornography just right there in

the Explore feed to watch, no problem.

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That was easy, and yet parents

thought it was a picture app.

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And so I'm watching kids download

and use this, and that felt

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really disconcerting to me.

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So I started doing education at my church.

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I did a presentation on pornography

to parents, which a lot of people

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were surprised I was doing this

talk, but then they were relieved

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to know that there was a resource.

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And so I created a Facebook

group and launched the website in

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2015, and now 10 years, 11 years

later, are where we are today.

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Again, this was not what I expected.

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Um, after ministry, I went to

Covenant Eyes, which is a software

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company that I'm sure many

listening to this maybe recognize.

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Uh, that was the software

that I had used for years.

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I still love it, but now full-time

at Protect Young Eyes, leading a team

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of presenters all over the world.

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And over the past year and a half, trying

to cram everything I've learned over

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the past decade into a book with stories

and as many tips and ideas as possible.

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So that's the journey.

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Again, I, I look back and I see how

business and understanding risk and

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mitigating risk and loving families

and ministry has all kind of worked

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together now with technology because

it's risk and it's families and their

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problems we've got to take care of.

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So that's the story.

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Steph: Amazing.

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I, I have to tell you, I was in the

introduction of the book when you were

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sharing a little bit of your past,

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Chris: Yeah

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Steph: I just had to put the book down and

thank God for you and your courage and for

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your wife for being willing to share your

struggle so that you can hold parents by

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the hand and help them protect their kids.

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And I wondered a little bit,

what was that season like?

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Was there a battle that the

enemy tried to make you be quiet

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about what you had experienced?

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And especially thinking, "I'm a

dad now, and maybe I don't want

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my kids to know all of this."

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And I'm asking this because there

might be dads listening, especially,

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that feel like, "You know what?

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Who am I to speak into

my kids' lives on this?

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This isn't an area of victory in my life."

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And, and so I'm wondering if you

can share a little bit of how God

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gave you the courage to do this.

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Chris: I'll recognize straight up front

that Everybody's journey is so unique,

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and there's nuance and complications.

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And so not that everything that

worked for me automatically translates

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into others' experiences, but I do

believe, using a quote that I heard

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from Pastor Jacob Aranza, that God

can turn any of our miseries into

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ministry, any of them into mission.

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That looks different for each of us,

but I do believe that He can do that.

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And I'll, I'll say there are some

things that kind of accidentally

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happen, but they're not.

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Those are just words that

I use to describe it.

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You know, for example, I can't explain

why where I was running that one night

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listening to that podcast from Matt

Chandler, um, and I had a chance to meet

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him just last year and shake his hand

and thank him just for being obedient in

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preaching and teaching, and for whatever

reason, God used that message to convince

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me that it was time to come clean.

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I can't explain why in that

moment, but I had a choice in that

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moment while running that night.

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I could have not been obedient and not

admitted to Andrea that this was an issue.

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That could have happened.

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So I think, you know, we have those this

that way, sort of those John: 10:10

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where Jesus says, you know, " This path

is steal, kill, destroy, but I have come

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to give you life and give it abundantly."

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Like, we sort of have those choices

in front of us, I think more often

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than we realize, and it's just

taking advantage of, of those.

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So it was that moment that

I decided that it was time.

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And then the other one, and I do share

a little bit about this one in the

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book, Stephanie, is I honestly never

really intended when I started at the

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very beginning doing presentations,

I didn't really intend to be

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fully transparent about my story.

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I mean, that, to your point, it's

not something you just go, "Hey, I

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used to look at porn, you know, and

I wanna tell the world about it."

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You know, that's, that's

usually not your first instinct.

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Um, but I was in front of this church

speaking, and there was just, again,

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there was this moment where I just knew

I had to admit to the audience that

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that was something I had struggled with.

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And this was a pretty conservative,

buttoned-up, Sunday morning, Sunday school

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kinda church, and they brought me in

to speak to about 100 of their parents.

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Not the typical audience where I'm just

gonna bare my soul, but I did, and they

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responded so surprised and graciously.

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Like, w- I think it was first, "I can't

believe," and then, "Oh my gosh, I can't

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believe that I'm not the only one."

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And it, like, there was a- this relief.

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And I-- what I saw happen, and this

is the encouragement I want to give

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to any dad, you know, listening to

this, um, it doesn't have to be that

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your kids know your whole story.

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They don't need to know

all of the details.

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But the gospel can become clear through

that our struggle, God's salvation through

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Christ, and our victory through Christ,

I mean, that's really the gospel message.

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We all have different versions of that,

and for your kids to know enough at

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an age-appropriate level is enough.

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That this is sin in the world, and that

can look a lot of different ways, and I,

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you know, was able to come through that,

and this is now what I'm doing with it.

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And as they get older, like, my

kids don't know the whole story.

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They know because, well, I've written

a book, and I even talked about it

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in a documentary, "Childhood 2.0,"

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that I struggled with porn

and I've come through that.

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That's enough for some ages.

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So it's more just embracing God's

goodness in that moment, doing what

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you can with it, sharing enough so

they know the beauty in overcoming sin,

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um, and when you feel prompted, obey.

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I, I guess that's what I would

leave you with is when feel, when

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you feel that prompting, obey.

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Um, it worked in a way that

I could have never expected.

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And what you often find, Stephanie,

is by sharing, you give others

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the courage to also share.

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It's that beautiful principle

that John Acuff, who's a great

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author and leader, says, "You give

people the gift of going second

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when you have the courage through

obedience to sometimes go first."

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So dads, you can, and moms, we all have

our struggles, whether it's pornography or

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anger or whatever addiction it might be,

but when prompted, run toward that light

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and you never know what might happen.

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Steph: Hmm.

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So eloquently explained, and I, I

really have such admiration for you.

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First of all, I guess with Protect

Young Eyes, uh, when I come to

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your website, I just feel like,

"Whew, I can take a breath.

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There's somebody that can actually

guide me through this," because

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it absolutely feels daunting.

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And even the ad campaign right

now that TikTok is, saying, "Well,

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we have all of these parental

controls," and I'm like: Wait, what?

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Is this true?

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And "I know exactly where

I'm gonna look to find out."

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if people don't know, you have a

device guide for every single device

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and how secure you can make it.

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It's just so comprehensive and amazing,

and you're constantly updating it, I

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am so grateful for the clarity, and I

think your background does absolutely

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explain why God gifted you to make it

so clear and accessible for parents.

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So when I was thinking about, what

sets your book apart, because " The

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Anxious Generation" is phenomenal at

explaining the why of why we have to

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go to battle for this, and, and it's

even amazing to me that he's even

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writing from a secular perspective

of realizing how detrimental this is.

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And then Aaron Lachner's book of

"The Opt-Out Family" is incredible

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at also the why and giving

a better yes for our family.

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But I would say your book is the why

and the how, and you bring such clarity

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to exactly how are we gonna do this.

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And, I think that that's what sets this

apart as an absolute must-read, must-buy.

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Chris: Thank you.

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I'm so glad to hear that.

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That, that's the word I want it to embody.

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That's the consultant in me.

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See a problem, fix a problem.

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And that's that background where my job

was to keep businesses out of trouble.

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So how would you do that?

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You'd look back to see what

trouble we've experienced.

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You look forward to see what your desired

destination is, and you try not to

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recommit the things that were problems

in the past, and guess what things could

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happen to get there and put in controls

and procedures to prevent those things.

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So to me, it's that same mindset.

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That's why I spend a whole chapter talking

about how the heck did we get here?

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Because for us, I think to chart a

desired path forward, we have to try

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not to recommit the sins of the past.

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And we're really at risk of doing that

with AI, recommitting all the same

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sins with social media that we ignored

for 10 years with this new technology.

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And so that's why I wanna look back

before we look forward, and I'm so

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glad that it achieved that for you.

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Like, that was my, truly my goal.

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So that's awesome.

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Steph: Good.

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Well, it absolutely comes through.

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And I think you do a beautiful job of,

walking in humility and making this

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approachable for families that if you

haven't done this well, if you are

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carrying shame for, "You know what?

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I think my kids have been exposed

to things," this is not a book that

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is going to make you feel condemned.

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It's going to make you feel equipped

to move forward the right way, and I

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really appreciate how you did that.

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And, the gracious way you model your

parenting of how much you love your kids

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by actually putting in, "These are the

phrases I've said to my kids to let them

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know I'm doing this all out of love."

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And whether you're taking back a device

or whether you're teaching a five-year-old

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about images that make you feel

uncomfortable, Your love for your kids

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as a father was just a banner over this.

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Chris: Thank you.

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Thank you.

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They may roll their eyes from time

to time, you know, in real life, but

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as, as I say to parents, you know, if

they're not rolling their eyes, then

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you're probably not saying it enough.

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Steph: Yep.

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Chris: that's, that's the parental

algorithm that I want us to be

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over and over and over again,

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Steph: It is so fascinating to see how we

got here to this overprotective stranger

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danger face on the milk carton generation

and I was so struck by the part where you

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said you actually need to be less teaching

your kids about the stranger danger on

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the street, but more saying if someone

online is too nice to you and they don't

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have a reason to be so nice to you, that

those things should raise a red flag.

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And it's just such a mind

shift, I think, for our

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Chris: Is, yeah

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Steph: of how we were raised.

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Chris: Yeah, for sure.

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I agree.

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And Jonathan presses into that.

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You know, and, and that's where the

history is fascinating, Stephanie,

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because at the same exact time that

our cultural and country anxiety was

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at its highest, right on the heels of

9/11, is when we now start to have some

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of these technologies taking shape.

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And so it unfortunately preyed

on two things: our fears and our

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desire to have happy children.

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Every parent wants a happy child, and

now here comes a dopamine-driven happy

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device that keeps them off the street.

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That's a perfect thing for me if

that's the way that I'm feeling.

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So you're right.

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I think if we step back and

recognize those things, we

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go, "Wait a minute, that's me.

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That, that, that's me.

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I'm making some of this up in my

head," and to get back to some of those

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more analog mindsets, hopefully so.

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Steph: Right.

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Well, let's go through a little bit,

if we could, just maybe touch on each

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of the five habits and why each is so

pivotal in protecting our families.

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Chris: Well, things are gonna change,

and so that's why I wrote it the way

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that I did, because otherwise it can

feel a little bit like Whac-A-Mole.

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The new technology, the new app, right?

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And we do want to make sure parents

understand the new things that come

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out, but I want there to be principles

that regardless of the next You know, AI

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technology that we haven't even conceived

yet comes out, that there are certain

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principles that I think we can apply to

whatever that is in order to find success,

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in order to have kids who use technology

in a good, positive, God-honoring way.

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And so that's why it's written

at that kind of habit level.

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So it starts with us to model the right

behaviors, and there's five of them here.

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And, you know, for my left brain

CPA spreadsheet, that's just kind

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of the way my brain works is in

frameworks and flow charts, and

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so you get a habit framework here.

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So number one, we model the

right behaviors starting with us.

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I go through micro-moves, little

things that we can do to show our kids

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how to use technology in a way that

still honors them while also doing

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: 00:18:16

the things we need to do as parents.

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: 00:18:17

I understand that we have certain

productivity and grades and

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: 00:18:20

schedules and sports and things

that we need to keep up with.

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: 00:18:24

I get that, and I'm on my phone just

like many of you, checking those things.

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: 00:18:27

And when's my son's track meet?

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: 00:18:28

And when's his event?

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: 00:18:30

And all-- You're checking

those things constantly.

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: 00:18:32

But I think there's a mindfulness there

that the same exact business model

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: 00:18:39

that TikTok and YouTube is built on

is built on the things on my phone,

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too, and hook into my attention, and

I just need to be mindful of that.

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: 00:18:47

And so modeling the right behaviors

and building a family media plan,

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: 00:18:51

which actually starts with a step

that a lot of families skip, which

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: 00:18:56

is asking the question of what

are our family values, right?

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: 00:19:02

Again, it's not in that weeds level.

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: 00:19:05

It's at the high level because regardless

of the technology that comes out or the

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: 00:19:08

show we're trying to watch or the app I'm

trying to download, instead of making all

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: 00:19:12

those individual decisions, wait a minute,

does it align with our family values?

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: 00:19:16

What are the things that we value

as a family in terms of fun or

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: 00:19:19

generosity or time together?

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: 00:19:22

Like document those things, and we

kind of walk through some ways to do

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: 00:19:26

that because I think that helps all the

other decisions be less overwhelming.

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: 00:19:32

You just kind of automatically

go, "Nope, that one doesn't align.

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: 00:19:35

Not even gonna try to

decide yes or no on it."

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: 00:19:37

So all of that is wrapped into habit

one and modeling the right behaviors.

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: 00:19:42

Then we're pursuing authentic connection.

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: 00:19:45

This is in a busy, disconnected world,

although connected digitally, still

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: 00:19:51

relationally pouring into our kids.

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: 00:19:53

And this is where we get into a lot

of the conversations, Stephanie, that

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: 00:19:56

we want parents to have related to

all of the difficult topics, talking

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: 00:20:00

to our kids about all the things

that our parents probably didn't

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: 00:20:03

talk to us about, didn't have to talk

to us about some of these things.

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: 00:20:08

But it's also in that chapter, Stephanie,

where I point out some of the ways, and

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: 00:20:13

this then gets into habit three, where

we say encourage work and play Right?

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: 00:20:19

So yes, our kids need to be doing chores

and have function around the house, and

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: 00:20:23

yes, we need our kids outside playing and

being more in the real physical world.

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: 00:20:28

But when you combine kind of habits

two and three, we have to embrace

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: 00:20:32

the realities of, well, wait a

minute, kicking my kids outside isn't

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: 00:20:36

quite as simple as it used to be.

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: 00:20:38

Steph: Mm-hmm

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: 00:20:40

Chris: Why?

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: 00:20:40

Because now I don't know what

kids are carrying around an

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: 00:20:42

iPhone that's unprotected.

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: 00:20:44

I don't know everything

about all the houses.

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: 00:20:45

So I walk parents through some of

the curious questions that we can

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: 00:20:50

be asking parents of those friends

of our kids to discover what kinds

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: 00:20:55

of digital risks might be present.

350

: 00:20:57

How do we pull off birthday

parties these days when the kids

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: 00:21:00

who show up have phones with them?

352

: 00:21:03

All these kinds of questions and scenarios

we didn't have to go through before, and

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: 00:21:08

I wanna make sure that we give as many

sort of step-by-step, chat-by-chat tips

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: 00:21:14

as possible, and so that's all kind of

woven in there in habits two and three.

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: 00:21:18

So model the right behaviors,

pursue authentic connection,

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: 00:21:20

encourage work and play, and then

we delay addictive technologies.

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: 00:21:24

And this is where we are not an

anti-technology organization.

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: 00:21:27

I love technology.

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: 00:21:29

I run a business through it.

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: 00:21:29

You and I have connected

through technology right?

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: 00:21:32

So there are positives, but it's

addictive technologies which demands

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: 00:21:36

an understanding of neurology to know

what things can be more addictive,

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: 00:21:42

and understanding the way that God

made the amazing brains of our kids.

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: 00:21:46

And so there's a lot

of that built in there.

365

: 00:21:48

And then into habit five, which is

more of the nitty-gritty, more of

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: 00:21:51

the hardware/software, and that's

where we diligently prevent harm.

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: 00:21:55

So model the right behaviors, habit

one, pursue authentic connection,

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: 00:21:58

encourage work and play, delay addictive

technologies, and diligently prevent harm.

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: 00:22:04

And it's five habits, but then in the

last one, you get another five-layer

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: 00:22:09

framework which is the five layers

of protection that we use a pyramid

371

: 00:22:13

to kind of show what that looks like.

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: 00:22:15

And that's just my way of, you know,

when something is big and overwhelming

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: 00:22:19

and kinda abstract like the internet, I,

in my brain, need to make it as tangible

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: 00:22:26

and sort of picture-driven as possible.

375

: 00:22:29

And so that's why we get the habits.

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: 00:22:31

That's why we get the

pyramid of protection.

377

: 00:22:33

That's why we get those sorts of

frameworks, because it just, it helps

378

: 00:22:37

it feel less intimidating if I can

see it and write down what it is.

379

: 00:22:42

And so I just hope that that's also a bit

of a relief to parents who read it too.

380

: 00:22:47

Steph: Yes, and I loved the analogy

you gave, because I'm a Wisconsin

381

: 00:22:51

girl and I live in Illinois now.

382

: 00:22:54

Chris: Yeah

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: 00:22:54

Steph: the putting the layers on,

384

: 00:22:56

Chris: Of course.

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: 00:22:57

Michigan winters,

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: 00:22:58

Steph: Yep.

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: 00:22:59

It makes so much sense that we would do

that with this, but then, of course, you

388

: 00:23:02

built it all on the foundation of prayer.

389

: 00:23:05

But you pointed out we could pray

all day long that our kids would

390

: 00:23:09

be protected from these issues.

391

: 00:23:11

It's not enough.

392

: 00:23:12

We need to move forward in wisdom.

393

: 00:23:14

S- so would you talk a little

bit more about that pyramid

394

: 00:23:17

that is such a helpful diagram?

395

: 00:23:20

Chris: Yeah, that's right, and it's not

saying that God's work isn't sufficient.

396

: 00:23:25

It's just recognizing that God

gave us practical tools to use.

397

: 00:23:30

I mean, the illustration that

I go back to is Christ himself.

398

: 00:23:34

There was something significant

about the incarnate physical version

399

: 00:23:39

of God with us in the practical,

in the messy, in the mud, in the

400

: 00:23:46

conversations, in the relationships.

401

: 00:23:49

There was something significant about

that, that I don't under- it's beyond

402

: 00:23:52

me and my comprehension as to why.

403

: 00:23:55

Steph: Mm-hmm

404

: 00:23:55

Chris: But for the salvation story to take

place, it demanded an incarnate physical

405

: 00:24:02

version of God to live and be among us.

406

: 00:24:06

So I'm not saying this is,

you know, apples to apples.

407

: 00:24:09

I'm not saying that anything I'm writing

about rises to that level of significance,

408

: 00:24:13

but I'm just saying that there's a,

a significance to the physical, and

409

: 00:24:16

in this case, yes, we pray, we use

the sword of the Spirit, and we, you

410

: 00:24:22

know, beg God to surround our children

in spiritual layers of protection.

411

: 00:24:26

I think one of the verses that I point

out in the book is one I've used for

412

: 00:24:30

years, is Psalm 119:37, which is, "Turn

my eyes away from worthless things.

413

: 00:24:36

Preserve my life according to your word."

414

: 00:24:39

And I put the names of

my children in that.

415

: 00:24:41

"Preserve Lauren's life," right?

416

: 00:24:43

"Turn Cole's eyes away

from worthless things."

417

: 00:24:45

Those…

418

: 00:24:46

Right?

419

: 00:24:46

So yes, we do that, but if we just

pray, you might still have porn

420

: 00:24:51

because you haven't taken care of the

router at night, or you haven't put

421

: 00:24:54

filters on the device, or the iPad

is laying there totally unprotected.

422

: 00:24:58

And I'm sorry, but all the prayer in

the world isn't going to just activate

423

: 00:25:02

a filter automatically on that iPad,

absent a divine miracle in that moment.

424

: 00:25:07

So that's where the pyramid you

know, it sits there on the rock of

425

: 00:25:12

prayer, but that's the practical.

426

: 00:25:14

The complement of the spiritual

and the practical, I think, are

427

: 00:25:18

the power in our home in order

to prevent some of these harms.

428

: 00:25:23

And so that's why I think

both are so important.

429

: 00:25:27

Steph: Mm-hmm.

430

: 00:25:27

And I am not a tech girl at all.

431

: 00:25:29

and the way that you explain the

difference between a modem and router and

432

: 00:25:34

how to move forward in safety on all of

them, . It's really, really accessible

433

: 00:25:39

Chris: Good.

434

: 00:25:40

Yeah.

435

: 00:25:40

That is definitely one of the more

technical places that I can see even

436

: 00:25:43

in the audiences where we speak, their,

you know, blood pressure starts to go

437

: 00:25:46

up as soon as you say the word router.

438

: 00:25:48

They're like, " freeze.

439

: 00:25:49

But it is so significant, as one

of those layers that can really,

440

: 00:25:53

really help if we get it right.

441

: 00:25:55

And, you know, the joke kind

of is, if it's overwhelming,

442

: 00:25:58

then find a seventh grader.

443

: 00:26:01

They'll help.

444

: 00:26:02

Change the password when they walk

away, but a great way to build digital

445

: 00:26:06

trust, which is a huge component of

habit two in terms of pursuing authentic

446

: 00:26:10

connection, is to, while you're setting

this router up, fully admitting to your

447

: 00:26:15

son or daughter that you are clueless.

448

: 00:26:17

Why not explain why a router is necessary?

449

: 00:26:20

It's not just because kids make mistakes.

450

: 00:26:22

It's because just like a filter on

the water that comes into our home,

451

: 00:26:26

or a lock on that front door or the

window, I just, I don't want junk from

452

: 00:26:30

the internet to come into our home.

453

: 00:26:32

Going back to our family values,

here are some of the reasons why.

454

: 00:26:35

And that, I think, I've-- in

my experience, starts to build

455

: 00:26:40

some of that digital trust with

our kids when they know why.

456

: 00:26:44

It's not just a kid issue.

457

: 00:26:45

This is a family issue that is for all

of us, and not just because we think

458

: 00:26:50

you're gonna make a mistake online.

459

: 00:26:54

Speaker 3: Aren't you so grateful

that you don't have to figure

460

: 00:26:56

this all out on your own?

461

: 00:26:57

I certainly am, and I wanna

help you get this book.

462

: 00:27:00

We have all the directions for

the giveaway in our show notes.

463

: 00:27:02

Check out those details and stay tuned

for part two of our conversation next week

464

: 00:27:07

All right, get back to those

smiles and that sunshine