Episode 93

#91. What Is Biblical Manhood and Womanhood REALLY? Is There Flexibility in God's Design for Gender Roles? | An Interview with Biblical Counselors Bryan and Krista Ryndak: Part 1

This is a hot topic in Christian circles, in culture, and in the news, but what does God actually say about what it means to be a man or a woman? Do we have to fit into a mold of Christian culture or is there flexibility for different personalities? What does it even mean to be made "in the image of God" and to be made "male and female". Bryan and Krista of So That We, a biblical counseling practice, bring clarity to this truly important topic. Christian parents will receive practical wisdom for themselves, their marriages, their parenting, and for their witness to the watching world.

Scriptures Referenced:

 2 Corinthians 1:3-5

Genesis 1:27

Genesis 2:18, 24

Ephesians 5

Titus 2

Proverbs 31

Matthew 22:36-40

Galatians 5:19

Books Recommended by Bryan (Full disclosure: Entrusted staff has not read these resources yet, but we want to offer the links since Bryan mentioned them. :) ):

The Journey to Biblical Masculinity

Dialed In

The Measure of a Man


Transcript
Stephanie:

They're the joyful agains our children.

2

:

Shout on the swings, the exhausting

agains of cooking and laundry and

3

:

the difficult agains of discipline.

4

:

So much of what we do

as mothers is on repeat.

5

:

So what if we woke up with clarity,

knowing which agains we were called to.

6

:

And went to bed believing we are

faithful in what matters most.

7

:

We believe God's word is

the key to untangle from the

8

:

confusion and overwhelm we feel.

9

:

Let's look up together to embrace a

motherhood full of freedom and joy.

10

:

Hey there, mama.

11

:

Welcome to the Again podcast.

12

:

I'm your host, Stephanie Hickox, and this

is brought to you by Entrusted Ministries.

13

:

Today I pray that you're

encouraged and equipped by this

14

:

conversation I had with my friend

Krista Rin and her husband Brian.

15

:

They are the incredible biblical

counselors at, so that we counseling.

16

:

The first time I met Krista, she was

leading an anxiety workshop at my

17

:

church, equipping parents to think about

anxiety biblically and how to help guide

18

:

their children through this struggle

in a pragmatic, Christ-centered way.

19

:

I was blown away by the way

that she applied the word

20

:

in such a tangible manner.

21

:

She and I have been able to develop

a friendship over the years, and I

22

:

could not be more grateful for her

influence and guidance in my life.

23

:

She's one of the most capable, wise

women I know, and because I know her

24

:

husband is deeply gifted at guiding

men to follow the Lord holistically

25

:

and wholeheartedly, I gave them some of

my hardest questions and the questions

26

:

that I know many believers are asking.

27

:

They were truly gracious to sit

down with me for hours, and we'll

28

:

be releasing parts of that interview

in three different sections.

29

:

First, I asked them, what does

biblical womanhood and biblical

30

:

manhood really look like?

31

:

Next, we got into the issue

of spiritual leadership.

32

:

There are many moms I know

that are longing to honor God's

33

:

design, but wondering how they

can encourage their husbands to

34

:

step into that leadership role.

35

:

And then I ask them some really difficult

questions about prodigal children,

36

:

It is important that we have a

biblical perspective and that we

37

:

know how to support those around us

that are experiencing this deep pain.

38

:

Little did I know that these topics would

be so relevant for today, particularly the

39

:

biblical womanhood and biblical manhood.

40

:

Certainly, they've been on the forefront

in recent years, but especially with

41

:

the last couple of weeks, they're

even more prevalent in the news.

42

:

We want to be rooted and grounded in the

word of God for how we can think about

43

:

his creation of us as male and female.

44

:

And often I find in the church

there's a lack of clarity.

45

:

Christa and Brian are going to invite

us into what does God's word say?

46

:

How does our masculinity and

femininity work when we have so

47

:

many different personalities and

the Lord has made us so uniquely?

48

:

Is there room for

flexibility in his design?

49

:

As we go into this topic, you will

frequently hear us talk about two ditches.

50

:

You see when you're driving down the

road, you want to stay on the path.

51

:

You don't want to veer into the ditch.

52

:

Obviously, often we take part of the

truth and we veer off the straight path

53

:

that the Lord has for us getting stuck

on a single doctrine or truth we don't

54

:

want to have these hangups or assumptions

steer us off the straight path.

55

:

We want to be able to hold multiple

truths of God's word and keep pressing

56

:

on the path the Lord has for us.

57

:

Krista and Brian do a fabulous

job providing clarity on this.

58

:

You'll hear part one of that topic

this week and part two next week.

59

:

I'm praying for each of you listening that

this would bless your understanding of

60

:

who God made you to be, your understanding

of how you can relate to your spouse,

61

:

and also how you can raise your children

to embrace God's design and certainly

62

:

how to engage with a culture that's

clearly wrestling with these questions.

63

:

May we be compassionately committed

to the truths of God's word.

64

:

Stephanie: Well, I feel so blessed

to be here with this dynamic duo I am

65

:

here with, Krista and Brian Reek of

so that we counseling and I have so

66

:

much respect for each of you, for the

way that you live your lives and the

67

:

way that you've pressed into the Lord

and allowed him to grow you through

68

:

personal trials really for the benefit

of others and the glory of the Lord.

69

:

And I, love your verse that you

founded the practice on Krista.

70

:

So I'm just gonna read that for everyone.

71

:

Blessed be the God and Father of our

Lord Jesus Christ, the father of mercies

72

:

and God of all comfort, who comforts

us in all our affliction so that we

73

:

may be able to comfort those who are

in any affliction with the comfort with

74

:

which we ourselves are comforted by God.

75

:

The second I heard the name of your

counseling practice, I'm like, I'm in.

76

:

I love this because you have experienced

a lot of the comfort of the Lord

77

:

through trials and he has given you

so much wisdom, and I've been so

78

:

blessed to get to know you as a friend

and also having you as a counselor,

79

:

just for our listeners, I don't know

that I've ever met a, a counselor

80

:

that was so rooted in biblical truth,

but made it incredibly practical,

81

:

but also spoken compassionately.

82

:

Krista just is so rare in that,

and as I've gotten to know you,

83

:

Krista, I've heard you speak so

highly of Ryan and the wisdom and

84

:

the strength that he is for you.

85

:

And I have been personally convicted.

86

:

It might be just a sentence you say or

something about Brian's convictions,

87

:

about biblical manhood or about

how moms need to let husbands lead.

88

:

And that's challenged my walk.

89

:

So I'm excited to actually get to sit down

and hear with you, Brian, firsthand this

90

:

passion that the Lord has on your heart.

91

:

And I really think in the church

today we often do set these categories

92

:

of this is what manhood looks like.

93

:

This is what womanhood looks like.

94

:

And it's not what the word says.

95

:

And I often find that churches are

trying to address this, but they're

96

:

still doing it in a very fuzzy way.

97

:

Mm-hmm.

98

:

And saying, well, we know it's

not just, you don't have to knit

99

:

at the women's ministry, but they

don't clarify what is it really.

100

:

Yeah.

101

:

And especially not all

men are made the same way.

102

:

So I'm really excited to talk about

biblical womanhood, a biblical manhood.

103

:

And what does that look like

in the church, in marriage?

104

:

But first, let's talk about we

are made in the image of God

105

:

and we are made to reflect him.

106

:

What does that look like first before

we dive into those other issues?

107

:

Krista/Bryan: great question.

108

:

I think it, it is important to tackle

that before being able to have a

109

:

discussion on

110

:

masculinity and femininity.

111

:

I wanna maybe start out

by saying for us as we

112

:

answer these questions, we're

113

:

not claiming that we have all the answers

and that we're holding the the to say.

114

:

This would be based on our own Bible

115

:

study, but

116

:

also the people that we're working with

in our practice, the things that we're

117

:

observing that work and don't work in

marriages that work and don't work with.

118

:

What you pointed out, Stephanie,

about applying masculinity and

119

:

femininity to our personality and

the unique ways that God made us.

120

:

And from marriage counseling of course,

and seeing kind of the issues that people

121

:

Stephanie: face.

122

:

Krista/Bryan: I'll let Brian start Talking

about the image of God a little bit.

123

:

Sure.

124

:

Throw me under the bus in a room

with two women to a podcast,

125

:

two women

126

:

being

127

:

the only man's voice.

128

:

Stephanie: So

129

:

Krista/Bryan: first I'll

apologize because when we do men's

130

:

counseling, we talk differently.

131

:

Yeah.

132

:

We sometimes don't knit thoughts.

133

:

Well together, we just

rapid fire bullet points.

134

:

I'll just apologize and if I

say things gruffly on purpose

135

:

or accident give me grace.

136

:

Stephanie: Yes.

137

:

Krista/Bryan: Sure.

138

:

All right.

139

:

Yeah.

140

:

We are made in the image of God

when we're made in the image of God.

141

:

The point is we're to

reflect his attributes.

142

:

And so he made male and

female going back to Genesis.

143

:

So it would stand to reason, or we can

infer that we will reflect differently.

144

:

If we didn't, or that wasn't the

intention, he would've just made one

145

:

thing rather than male and female.

146

:

So I'll often start with that, knowing

there's a difference in the way we're

147

:

going to reflect those attributes.

148

:

Yeah, absolutely.

149

:

And I think that ties into why

there's so many different opinions

150

:

about what biblical masculinity

and femininity looks like, right?

151

:

Because we have different skills

and abilities, we have different

152

:

personalities, all have different

153

:

brokenness, we have different trauma.

154

:

We have different levels

155

:

Stephanie: of

156

:

Krista/Bryan: pride,

maybe that we bring into

157

:

the discussion

158

:

that affect how we bear God's image.

159

:

Yeah.

160

:

Okay.

161

:

Well, I wanna maybe start

162

:

with the question of womanhood

and femininity, if that's okay.

163

:

And just unpack that one

164

:

Stephanie: piece.

165

:

right?

166

:

Sure.

167

:

Yes.

168

:

Krista/Bryan: If we're looking strictly

at scripture, we see that there are

169

:

a lot

170

:

of passages that give

171

:

us ideas about how a woman might uniquely

or particularly be called to bear God's

172

:

image.

173

:

Genesis,

174

:

the that referenced, right?

175

:

We often

176

:

hear conversations about the word help

meet or helper as related to the female.

177

:

I'll make a helper suitable for him, and

178

:

I hear theologians discuss

to what degree that

179

:

specifically means eve.

180

:

So

181

:

God made the woman helper, but what

182

:

degree to which this also

might just mean mankind.

183

:

God means that people

184

:

need other people.

185

:

We actually all need a

186

:

helper.

187

:

So

188

:

when we engage in questions of what

femininity looks like for a single

189

:

woman when we're using Genesis only

to teach about marriage, that can be

190

:

limiting for the women that are in

191

:

that

192

:

category.

193

:

Stephanie: Another passage that we

194

:

Krista/Bryan: often focus

195

:

on is Ephesians

196

:

five.

197

:

The

198

:

Stephanie: wives Submit

199

:

to your husband's passage,

200

:

which

201

:

Krista/Bryan: will parse out more later.

202

:

Stephanie: Those like Titus two, that

203

:

Krista/Bryan: gives us a picture of

older women mentoring the younger

204

:

women of women being busy in the home.

205

:

Stephanie: So

206

:

Krista/Bryan: think these may be where

we've gotten some of our stereotypes

207

:

of what the ideal biblical woman looks

like A woman's place is in the home.

208

:

But is it only

209

:

in the home?

210

:

When we look

211

:

Stephanie: at womanhood and

212

:

Krista/Bryan: the totality

213

:

of scripture, we see a

214

:

lot of biblical examples that

215

:

are actually beyond

216

:

Stephanie: that.

217

:

So the

218

:

godly woman

219

:

of Proverbs

220

:

31, she's clearly

221

:

Krista/Bryan: in the

222

:

home,

223

:

Stephanie: but she's also

224

:

Krista/Bryan: running a business.

225

:

Lydia

226

:

or Priscilla of Priscilla and Aquila.

227

:

They're working,

228

:

they're earning income.

229

:

We have pictures of really

gentle women like Ruth

230

:

Wise,

231

:

Stephanie: women like Esther and Abigail.

232

:

And

233

:

Krista/Bryan: we say,

234

:

Stephanie: see

235

:

Krista/Bryan: really strong

236

:

and courageous women

237

:

Stephanie: like

238

:

Krista/Bryan: who sneaks the

Israelite spies into the city,

239

:

Stephanie: Deborah, the judge, or

jl the woman who, drives a tent peg

240

:

Krista/Bryan: Cicero's skull.

241

:

So

242

:

Stephanie: back to our earlier

243

:

Krista/Bryan: point, there are directions

on behaviors that a godly woman should

244

:

seek to emulate as an image bearer.

245

:

Stephanie: But rather than that

246

:

Krista/Bryan: one stereotype, they

247

:

seem to be able to exist within all

248

:

Stephanie: these

249

:

different personalities, different things

250

:

that

251

:

Krista/Bryan: has put

252

:

in women's paths to do.

253

:

Think of Esther

254

:

Stephanie: for such

255

:

a time

256

:

Krista/Bryan: this, there

are things related to maybe a

257

:

woman's unique personal calling.

258

:

Stephanie: In counseling

259

:

Krista/Bryan: talk a lot about

260

:

the the brain,

261

:

right?

262

:

And kind of the interest in neuroscience

263

:

intersection that we,

we have in today's And

264

:

broadly speaking,

265

:

women's brains are

266

:

wired

267

:

more than men for connection,

for experiencing and expressing

268

:

emotion, for being emotionally

and relationally intuitive.

269

:

don't mean every woman

270

:

is specifically this way, but

more so in contrast to men

271

:

who tend to be better at big

272

:

picture thinking, compartmentalizing

their thoughts, thinking literally

273

:

Stephanie: the

274

:

Krista/Bryan: way that

a woman's brain is wired

275

:

can make her

276

:

better at

277

:

nurturing family relationships

and caring for people.

278

:

But

279

:

that

280

:

doesn't mean that being

281

:

Stephanie: a

282

:

Krista/Bryan: wife and mom

283

:

Stephanie: is the only

284

:

Krista/Bryan: domain where

caring for others can be used.

285

:

So

286

:

I think to value what a

woman is to value those

287

:

unique strengths.

288

:

And scripture gives us

great examples to that end.

289

:

So

290

:

the

291

:

stereotypes Are really totally without

292

:

credence, right?

293

:

They

294

:

do fit

295

:

some women

296

:

the

297

:

stereotype of kind of the woman in

the home and she's meek and mild

298

:

Stephanie: and

299

:

Krista/Bryan: That fits women.

300

:

Stephanie: But I think we have

301

:

to

302

:

Krista/Bryan: beyond that

in order to understand that

303

:

God might use

304

:

women's unique gifts in

all different places.

305

:

God uses single women.

306

:

God

307

:

uses women with ministry

or workplace calling.

308

:

He uses women on the mission field, right?

309

:

So

310

:

a woman has a

311

:

hugely important, hugely valuable role.

312

:

She has strength.

313

:

She has courage.

314

:

She has influence.

315

:

Stephanie: We know

316

:

Krista/Bryan: God values

relationships highly.

317

:

The first commandment that

318

:

Jesus

319

:

talked about

320

:

is

321

:

Stephanie: to

322

:

Krista/Bryan: love the

323

:

Lord your God, right?

324

:

the

325

:

second is

326

:

love

327

:

your

328

:

neighbor.

329

:

So natural

330

:

bent of

331

:

women toward relationship

is clearly something God

332

:

designed to reflect his image.

333

:

But

334

:

I

335

:

think

336

:

Stephanie: the

337

:

danger

338

:

Krista/Bryan: of that is that

339

:

a woman

340

:

can also use those gifts for harm.

341

:

She can be manipulative.

342

:

She can think

343

:

her

344

:

gifts are better,

345

:

they're

346

:

more important than the

gifts of the men around her.

347

:

She can start to desire control,

control over the man or how things

348

:

are done in the home or whatever.

349

:

So we think examples in that, like

350

:

Stephanie: Delilah or

Jezebel or the adulterous

351

:

Krista/Bryan: woman in Proverbs, she's

352

:

seeking to, lure in the men.

353

:

I think even those

354

:

extremes

355

:

can be deceiving,

356

:

right?

357

:

Because the godly woman will think, oh,

I'm never gonna be Jezebel or Delilah.

358

:

That's not me.

359

:

And because we're looking at that as

360

:

a comparison, we don't

361

:

realize sometimes we have pendulum swung

362

:

into the

363

:

stereotype

364

:

from the culture.

365

:

We don't wanna be this,

366

:

Sweet, meek and

367

:

mild, a little subservient woman in

368

:

the home.

369

:

So we might become like, I'm

370

:

Stephanie: woman, hear me

371

:

Krista/Bryan: roar.

372

:

I'm smarter than the man.

373

:

I don't need a man.

374

:

I can do it all.

375

:

Right?

376

:

So

377

:

we're still then veering into now a more

cultural stereotype of what womanhood is.

378

:

I see some well-meaning

379

:

like very

380

:

kind love

381

:

the

382

:

Lord.

383

:

Moms, they just want peace in their homes.

384

:

They want obedient children.

385

:

They

386

:

want husbands who lead spiritually.

387

:

Stephanie: But because

388

:

Krista/Bryan: of that.

389

:

don't realize those

390

:

things have come idols of their heart

and they're starting to actually slip

391

:

subtly into trying to gain control

392

:

of what God alone

393

:

has

394

:

control of, so

395

:

if I

396

:

was to break all down and

397

:

and just

398

:

make

399

:

a little bit

400

:

Stephanie: of a

401

:

Krista/Bryan: summary thought

402

:

of of what biblical woman who

403

:

looks like a woman is a nurturer.

404

:

She's insightful and she's influential.

405

:

What is she

406

:

Stephanie: not,

407

:

Krista/Bryan: she's not someone

408

:

who uses

409

:

those gifts for harm.

410

:

Proverbs 31 says, she does

411

:

Stephanie: her

412

:

Krista/Bryan: husband good

413

:

and

414

:

not evil all the

415

:

days of

416

:

her

417

:

Stephanie: life.

418

:

Krista/Bryan: She is

a helper, but a helper

419

:

Stephanie: in a

420

:

Krista/Bryan: strong iron iron sense, not

421

:

just

422

:

a subservient

423

:

one.

424

:

She

425

:

is

426

:

not

427

:

limited to

428

:

Stephanie: only

429

:

wearing

430

:

Krista/Bryan: pink

431

:

or wearing

432

:

dresses, though

433

:

she can

434

:

thrive

435

:

in those

436

:

things.

437

:

She can enjoy those things.

438

:

She's

439

:

Stephanie: not limited

440

:

Krista/Bryan: only to being in the

home, but she can thrive in the

441

:

home and with a role in the home.

442

:

But submission

443

:

doesn't mean she's limited just

444

:

to

445

:

being

446

:

passive.

447

:

Her role is only

448

:

passive.

449

:

She

450

:

has authority

451

:

to

452

:

rise up and fill her sphere

of influence for God's glory.

453

:

She

454

:

has authority in

455

:

how she

456

:

bears his image.

457

:

She

458

:

does have

459

:

a

460

:

limit to that authority.

461

:

And

462

:

that

463

:

limit, when we're talking

464

:

about submission is really

465

:

about.

466

:

Attitude

467

:

more than it is about position.

468

:

It's about

469

:

the

470

:

attitude.

471

:

Is

472

:

there pride in

473

:

her think,

474

:

oh, it's all about me, my image, I wanna

create my world, my home, my children, the

475

:

I

476

:

see it, the way

477

:

want them

478

:

to be?

479

:

Or am

480

:

I trying to

481

:

create those

482

:

things to be as God

483

:

Stephanie: sees

484

:

them

485

:

Krista/Bryan: as God

486

:

Stephanie: wants them

487

:

be?

488

:

And

489

:

Krista/Bryan: when

490

:

she does that, she can be the compliment

to man in a really lovely way.

491

:

That was a lot

492

:

of

493

:

Stephanie: Yes.

494

:

That

495

:

Krista/Bryan: I now

understand women completely.

496

:

That

497

:

was good.

498

:

I

499

:

Stephanie: it's so funny

because God gave me three sons.

500

:

And

501

:

Krista/Bryan: then

502

:

Stephanie: daughter.

503

:

At one years old, the difference was

so striking where my sons, if they

504

:

fell, they would say ow, that hurt.

505

:

And then I'd give them a

hug and they'd be fine.

506

:

Yeah.

507

:

And my daughter would be like,

mom, I hit my shin on the

508

:

second step and it hurt so bad.

509

:

And I did it because I was doing

the, and the whole story, and I

510

:

didn't even have to ask the question.

511

:

It was there.

512

:

And so that was amazing.

513

:

That was you.

514

:

So was I, that was, I love it.

515

:

That was so much content.

516

:

And I know, Brian, you're gonna follow

up with some strong wisdom, and I

517

:

know it's gonna be less words, but yet

518

:

Krista/Bryan: I don't know,

519

:

Stephanie: pack as much of a punch.

520

:

I

521

:

know.

522

:

It

523

:

is.

524

:

It might be as many whereas He

525

:

has

526

:

a

527

:

Krista/Bryan: to

528

:

say

529

:

about his topic too.

530

:

Well, I suppose it is a passion,

but it's because there's so much

531

:

kind of confusion, maybe even more

confusion about what masculinity is

532

:

and isn't compared to what femininity

I think that's true is and isn't,

533

:

right.

534

:

I guess to some extent there's

not really an ideal masculine man.

535

:

And I say that kind of there's

not an ideal Christian, right?

536

:

There are characteristics, there are

instructions, there are commands,

537

:

there are things that are common

strengths and weaknesses and things.

538

:

But what we've done culturally, because

there is confusion, is we've created

539

:

essentially caricatures stereotypes

have come out of things We notice

540

:

they're not without, as you said, not

without merit or credence as well.

541

:

But for most men that the idea isn't

that we feel this conflict between

542

:

man acting different than women.

543

:

We feel more of a conflict of how does

a man act relative to another man?

544

:

Which one is

545

:

masculine?

546

:

Which one isn't?

547

:

That's great.

548

:

Are they both masculine?

549

:

Which one's biblically masculine?

550

:

Which one's toxic, masculine, that sort

551

:

of

552

:

thing.

553

:

The approach I'll take with men and

at least in my journey of trying

554

:

to understand all this, is we're

unique in our personalities and our

555

:

gifting that, that God has given

us our purposes are different.

556

:

He's given us works to do

long before we were born.

557

:

What we are trying to do is how do we

do those things within masculinity,

558

:

I suppose.

559

:

One

560

:

of

561

:

the questions I get is, what am

I supposed to either look like

562

:

or act or do to be masculine?

563

:

My wife says I need to lean more.

564

:

I know she's thinking I'm not manly

enough and that sort of thing.

565

:

Those are some unspoken

things I suppose I hear.

566

:

When we talk about kind of characteristics

and responsibilities and even calling,

567

:

how do we walk that out if one person

is outdoorsy and, can fight and can

568

:

shoot, and all those sorts of things.

569

:

And how does another man walk those

out when his gifting is computer work?

570

:

He's not necessarily strong

and gonna win every battle.

571

:

Can both of those men be masculine?

572

:

I

573

:

think one of the main things that

men run into with that question is,

574

:

well, don't want to be like that.

575

:

Whatever the caricature is, whether

the caricature is this huge, the

576

:

term, we've heard the term alpha

male and it's come to mean something

577

:

like, huge strong, black belt and

jiujitsu, can take on an army himself.

578

:

Those sorts of things.

579

:

Most of us guys we know

we aren't gonna be that.

580

:

We can never get there or we don't want

581

:

to

582

:

per se.

583

:

So the risk that men run is,

well then I just don't care.

584

:

I'm just not gonna be a man if that's

what a man is, I'm gonna be me.

585

:

And culture says that's great.

586

:

Right.

587

:

Stephanie: Right.

588

:

So

589

:

Krista/Bryan: we throw

590

:

the baby out with the bath water.

591

:

At that point, we just give up

the idea of understanding what

592

:

masculinity is within that.

593

:

What is our actual God-given

purpose within the family, within

594

:

the church, within the community.

595

:

I suppose

596

:

if I were to boil it down,

you did a nice job of kind of

597

:

what it is and what it isn't.

598

:

What I try to do is

dismantle the caricature.

599

:

What within the caricature is biblical?

600

:

What is reasonable?

601

:

What fits within certain personalities?

602

:

What is okay?

603

:

Can I be those things and

still be a Christian man?

604

:

Can I be those things and still

be a masculine Christian man?

605

:

I think what I feel at this

point, what masculinity is not,

606

:

or what it doesn't look like it's

not a caricature, it's not an

607

:

idol.

608

:

It's not

609

:

the exact same thing from man to man.

610

:

It's not

611

:

toxic,

612

:

it's not comfortable, it's not

lazy, and it's definitely not safe.

613

:

And I think one of the

614

:

Stephanie: things we have to

615

:

Krista/Bryan: it's not abusive either

physically, emotionally, and spiritually.

616

:

And it, I guess if we were to bring a

Bible verse into it, and I can't quote it,

617

:

but Galatians five

618

:

19, it talks about the acts of the flesh.

619

:

So things that I can remember, it's a

discord malice debauchery, basically

620

:

all the bad stuff that we know

621

:

is

622

:

bad.

623

:

So those things

624

:

also would fall into what

a masculinity is not.

625

:

Yeah,

626

:

Stephanie: Mm-hmm.

627

:

right.

628

:

Krista/Bryan: But as you said, sometimes

we can say from the pulpit or just in

629

:

books, we spend a lot of time on what

masculinity is not, but we don't really

630

:

maybe express what masculinity is.

631

:

We don't spend much time.

632

:

Part of that is because it can

vary quite a bit from man to man.

633

:

There are some general precepts, but how

that's walked out, boots on the ground,

634

:

that's where the differences come in, and

635

:

that's where

636

:

caricatures get in the

637

:

Stephanie: way.

638

:

Mm-hmm.

639

:

If

640

:

I

641

:

Krista/Bryan: can't

642

:

walk

643

:

it out like that caricature,

644

:

I must not be actually a masculine man.

645

:

So why bother?

646

:

What does masculinity look like?

647

:

I think the main thing is

masculinity is biblical.

648

:

Conceptually, I suppose there, there

are the attributes in the New Testament.

649

:

There's a couple of books, and I'll

mention those in a second, that

650

:

talk about 20 attributes of a man

which are good, but they're also

651

:

attributes that kind of, everybody

should be following man and woman.

652

:

So

653

:

while those are good, they're

not necessarily unique to men,

654

:

but it is worth mentioning gene

Gaetz's book, the Measure of a Man.

655

:

He writes about the 20

attributes of a man, and that

656

:

comes out of Paul's writings.

657

:

Talking about anger and balanced

life and those sorts of things.

658

:

So we parse those out and the

qualifications of an elder and

659

:

things like that, those are good.

660

:

But we also try to find the unique things.

661

:

There's another book related to that.

662

:

It's by Jim Ramos.

663

:

It's called Dialed In.

664

:

And essentially it's the same idea, but

it brings maybe a little more modern

665

:

perhaps outdoorsy feel to it that

some men find a little more relatable.

666

:

We can add those two sources as well.

667

:

I say conceptually because we as

men know, okay, we're not supposed

668

:

to lash out in anger, but if we

grew up in a supposedly Christian

669

:

home where anger was uncontrolled.

670

:

What does that look like?

671

:

I know I'm supposed to control my

anger, but I don't actually know

672

:

boots on the ground, what that means.

673

:

And it might be something a little bit

different, walked out a little differently

674

:

among different personalities as well.

675

:

So circling my thought process

which we do all the time in

676

:

the men's room, so to speak.

677

:

Masculinity looks like it's biblical.

678

:

It's being a man.

679

:

So on the surface that seems

like a silly definition.

680

:

Masculinity is being a man, but the

definition that I'm using now that

681

:

comes out of another book by Jake

Hamilton but I'll just quote it.

682

:

It's A Man is a biological male human

who confidently chooses to go first in

683

:

any circumstance and joyfully commits

to honoring God, respecting women, and

684

:

protecting his children at all costs.

685

:

Stephanie: Mm-hmm.

686

:

Krista/Bryan: It's

687

:

a working definition for us.

688

:

There's a lot of things within

that I bring out with different

689

:

categories and domains and pillars.

690

:

But we'll leave it at that for now.

691

:

Masculinity is being healthy physically.

692

:

I am

693

:

pretty passionate about

694

:

Stephanie: that.

695

:

Krista/Bryan: My first career

was a physical therapist.

696

:

So being healthy is part of it.

697

:

But we'll move forward from there.

698

:

It's pursuing spiritual maturation.

699

:

Okay.

700

:

Masculinity is being able to

identify, communicate, and take

701

:

responsibility for our emotions.

702

:

Masculinity is facing

703

:

your past head on

704

:

admitting that everything affects

us, dealing with the fallout and

705

:

then pursuing God's purpose for us.

706

:

Unashamedly

707

:

I

708

:

sum it up this way.

709

:

I, there's four pillars to

masculinity that I think are

710

:

more unique to masculinity.

711

:

So we have the general principles

of everybody should have integrity,

712

:

everybody should have honor.

713

:

Everybody shouldn't lie,

those sorts of things.

714

:

But I think some of the things

that are unique to men are what

715

:

I would say are the four pillars.

716

:

Protecting, providing,

performing, and preparing.

717

:

Any one of those

718

:

we can

719

:

parse out at any point in time.

720

:

But maybe that's all I

have to say about that.

721

:

That's good.

722

:

Stephanie: That was phenomenal I, I

feel like You're correcting so many

723

:

cultural misconceptions and lies,

but also I just, I hear the heart

724

:

of a man of how complicated this is.

725

:

Mm-hmm.

726

:

The expectations are so high in the

church and they're being so demeaned

727

:

in culture and how does a man arise up

to this high standard when it does feel

728

:

overwhelming or when there is confusion

or when you've never seen it lived out.

729

:

And of course your wife is so often

counting on you so desperately to do that.

730

:

I hear the pressure, but I just feel

so much clarity from how you described

731

:

that, and that's an amazing definition.

732

:

Krista/Bryan: Yeah.

733

:

That's really good.

734

:

I like how you presented ditches.

735

:

'cause that's where my head was as

well, with females with the ditch of

736

:

it's really passive and it's really

soft, or it's really aggressive and I

737

:

feel like you did that with males as

well to say we have this picture in

738

:

our mind of the alpha male and, I feel

like I'm not a man if I'm not that.

739

:

But then that opposite, what if he's

the more sensitive or more introverted

740

:

and well then does he feel like, well,

I can't be a man because maybe I don't

741

:

exemplify those characteristics that

feel more stereotypically masculine.

742

:

So it sounds like you're saying

the same thing, that there

743

:

are extremes we can fall into.

744

:

And the truth or living that

out biblically is somewhere

745

:

in maybe the messy middle.

746

:

Yeah, I think the weeds yes, are

essentially that we have ditches, but

747

:

that does not absolve us from having to

work towards what masculinity should be.

748

:

Yeah.

749

:

So if we are comfortable, if we

are lazy, if we're real passive,

750

:

we might be like, I'm a man.

751

:

My family's doing great, but are we

really living out our full masculinity,

752

:

our full works that he has for us to do?

753

:

Should we be stronger physically?

754

:

Should we be stronger emotionally?

755

:

My point mostly is that there's not an

ideal level of strength necessarily.

756

:

Right.

757

:

I'll never be as strong as somebody

much younger than me who plays

758

:

professional football, for example,

but I can be as strong as I can be.

759

:

And it's not just about physical strength.

760

:

So there's a lot of wes here, but

that, that can be a little example.

761

:

Stephanie: Yeah.

762

:

I really liked when you talked

about the computer programmer

763

:

versus the mud wrestler, or,

764

:

I, we went to a church once

where that those were the men's

765

:

retreats, it's like Survivor.

766

:

And my husband who built a computer based

ministry at 25 was like, that's not me.

767

:

That doesn't resonate with me.

768

:

What do you have for me?

769

:

And so then it's, then he

felt isolated from that.

770

:

And I think what drew me to him so much

and what I saw as masculine in him was

771

:

how he threw off fear of man when he knew

the Lord was calling him to something.

772

:

He was just resolute in it.

773

:

And I felt like that's absolutely

something I can follow because

774

:

I can struggle with caring

too much what people think.

775

:

And so that going first, I found

like such a protection in that,

776

:

how he was able to throw off those

things and cultural expectations.

777

:

But I do see how that's hard to

say, well what does this look like?

778

:

And then here, raising three boys with

him and they have different levels of

779

:

aggression or masculinity, how do you

guide them when one of them just wants to

780

:

tackle you, and another is no, really do

show me the how the computer works, dad.

781

:

Krista/Bryan: Yeah.

782

:

Yeah.

783

:

Yeah, It.

784

:

I guess maybe to, to comment a little

bit on that because that's a good point.

785

:

Yeah.

786

:

Yeah.

787

:

You have three children or six children,

and they're all very different.

788

:

So you have three boys and

one's real, any stick is

789

:

Stephanie: a weapon.

790

:

Krista/Bryan: Right?

791

:

And you have another where, can

you go outside for a few minutes,

792

:

Stephanie: please?

793

:

Yeah.

794

:

Krista/Bryan: Yeah.

795

:

Right.

796

:

Yeah.

797

:

But what

798

:

is, what within their personalities

do we need to develop as far

799

:

as what we think is biblical.

800

:

Any war has different levels

of function the spear tip.

801

:

So the Savage Warrior as

well as the logistics, right.

802

:

And they all have a role.

803

:

And to some extent I challenge every

guy to examine whether they're in

804

:

a ditch, whether they become very

complacent, because, well, I'm made

805

:

this way, or I'm already this way.

806

:

I'm not sure I can be a Christian

because I'm way over here on this ditch.

807

:

So that's a lot of what we challenge and

try to come up with within the individual.

808

:

Man.

809

:

Are we meeting some of

these protection things?

810

:

Protection meaning more than just

physical but includes physical.

811

:

The wisdom doesn't stop there.

812

:

Come back next week for part

two of this conversation

813

:

as you've been listening to the wisdom

of Brian and Krista, perhaps you're

814

:

thinking, wow, if only I could sit down

with them and process my family struggle.

815

:

And praise the Lord.

816

:

Due to technology, no matter

where you live, you can.

817

:

Krista and Brian are local

to the Chicago area, but they

818

:

certainly welcome virtual clients.

819

:

I'm going to link their counseling

practice in the show notes, and I

820

:

would highly encourage you to run to

that path of freedom for your family.

821

:

It's one of the wisest

investments you could make.

822

:

Stephanie: We know you're busy, mama.

823

:

So we are truly grateful you joined us for

this episode of again, if you're looking

824

:

for more information about building your

home on the foundation of Jesus Christ,

825

:

head to www dot Entrusted Ministries

dot com to learn more about our study

826

:

for moms Entrusted with a child's Heart.

827

:

This scripture saturated study

has blessed families around the

828

:

world, and we want it for you too.

829

:

Before you go, I want to pray this

benediction over you from Second

830

:

Thessalonians one 11 through 12.

831

:

We're rooting for you to this end.

832

:

We always pray for you that our God

may make you worthy of his calling

833

:

and fulfill every resolve for good.

834

:

And every work of faith by his power

so that the name of our Lord Jesus

835

:

may be glorified in you and you

and Him according to the grace of

836

:

our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

837

:

Amen.

838

:

Until we meet again.

Next Episode All Episodes Previous Episode

About the Podcast

Show artwork for The Again Podcast on Christian Parenting: Redeeming the Repetition of Biblical Motherhood
The Again Podcast on Christian Parenting: Redeeming the Repetition of Biblical Motherhood
Christian Parenting, Biblical Motherhood, Faith, Family

Listen for free

About your host

Profile picture for Stephanie Hickox

Stephanie Hickox

Stephanie has always delighted in God’s Word and in sharing it with others. Whether it is equipping mothers and leaders through Entrusted with a Child’s Heart, inspiring students when teaching at homeschool co-ops or children’s ministry, or homeschooling her own children, Stephanie’s life mission is to encourage others to follow faithfully and joyfully after Jesus—especially if they hold her favorite job title: mom.

Betsy Corning wrote Entrusted with a Child’s Heart in 1999 in response to the needs she saw in families as she and David counseled young parents just a few years behind them. Entrusted has been taught in hundreds of churches nationwide, been translated into several foreign languages, and has made its way around the world. More recently, Betsy received her Masters in Biblical Studies from The Master’s University and is developing a new Bible Study program called Get the Word Out. Her passion for God’s Word, discipleship, and teaching biblical principles as they apply to family life has remained strong to this day. One of the greatest blessings in Betsy’s life are her three grown children, their spouses, and ten grandchildren that keep her constantly in touch with every age and stage.

Jen Freckman Is an incredible wealth of wisdom. She will tell you a natural remedy for just about anything! She is also a voracious reader and she is just overflowing with quotes and guidance that she's encountered through reading and being faithful. She delights in her children and is a devoted mother. She is also an amazingly creative problem solver! Her solutions to manage her home and guide her children are inspiring.

Emily Deyo is such a treasure. She is an incredible encourager and servant-hearted woman. When she has the mic in front of her, so much value comes out! She is a wordsmith and her heart consistently beats for how she can encourage and serve others. She is a truly loving and attentive mother.

Join Betsy, Emily, Jen, and Stephanie as they share the wisdom only Scripture and on-the-job training can provide to help untangle the joyful calling of motherhood.